WHO REALLY CONTROLS AHRMA RACING?

[Larry Perkins]

This is a question and letter that will also go to David Lamberth at AHRMA and it is strictly my opinion.

So who really controls AHRMA racing?  AFter this weekend at ISDTRR it is obviously NOT AHRMA and NOT the racers.  It is apparently the Promoter that makes the rules and calls the shots.  It is apparently at ISDTRR not even the club promoting the race but the head honcho of the club.

This debate is over two issues.  The main one is the late impound penalties that were assesed.  Now I understand it is hard on the club if everyone tries to Tech and impound on Saturday morning but to penalize some guy that has to work on Friday with a five minute penalty is unfair.  In case you don't know starting out with a 5 minute penalty pretty much insures the best you can do is a silver medal.  It is not an AHRMA rule and it was never proposed by AHRMA or the board at AHRMA to my knowledge.  It was dreamed up by Ron Ribolzi and the Missouri Mudders.  I was told several times by several people that they wouldn't impose it if it was up to them but it was Ron's show.

I think it penalizes the working guy that can't get off early Friday and is not fair or in the spirit of FUN.  Beyond that in my case there were extra ordinary circumstances that the promoter would not accept.  I left in time to get to impound on time but was stopped randomly by the DOT and spent an hour being safety checked.  I arrived at Park Hills at 6:14.  14 minutes late after an hour stopped and it was documented with a report that listed stop time and two tickets.  My appeal was immediately dismissed and Ron asked me if I was racing a Vintage bike.  When I responded yes he said the penalty would not matter because it would probably break anyway.  That attitude would really be discouraging if it was my first ISDTRR.  

More discouraging was some of the trail used on Saturday with all the rain that had passed through the last few days.  There were about 20 bikes that never got through the first special test it was so greasy.  I would say at least half of the riders fell in the first special test.  Again if this was their first time it would have been a rude awakening instead of FUN.  

There are many trails at St. Joe State Park that are sandy and much of this was used but apparently there was no backup wet weather trail plan for the bad non-sandy parts.  This could of easily been planned in advance.  It would have required some hookup with doubletrack and it would have made it a bit easy but easy trail and letting special tests decide the meet is the spirit of ISDTRR.

Then the Hot Lap MX special test did not happen on Saturday because it had not been laid out yet.  Good preperation?

So who runs AHRMA racing with this promoter making rules and making not so good of decisions?  I believe that the Mudders have now at least twice shown that they do as they please and don't have a good feel for "Vintage Friendly" and the spirit of FUN that ISDTRR has been and should be.  They are too ingrained in making challenges for modern racers.

This is the very reason that AHRMA should oversee some of this to not have the same problems with other promoters in the future. To the best of my knowledge AHRMA had no hand in the planning of this internally.  If they did then shame on them too.  Ted Landers was apparently in charge of Tech and represented AHRMA there but when I asked him about the penalty he was one of the ones that said he did not like the rule but it was Ribolzi's show.  Funny I thought it was an AHRMA National.

So AHRMA who runs the show and will I go to another AHRMA event next season where the promoter changes the rules with their own supplemental rules?

Hats off to ALL the hard workers that are in the Mudders.  This is not meant as an attack on you guys.  It is just an argument of who runs the show?  But if no changes are made and you guys are awarded another ISDTRR I will pass even though it is close to home.

Don't let this keep anyone from Arkansas next year because those guys understand the terms "Vintage Friendly" and FUN!

Larry P

[wfopete]

Larry, sorry about your bad luck. Boy, there are a lot of ways a person could go with this, I always envisioned the ISDT (and like wise the ISDTRR) as 90% preparation. The whole thing is always a crapshoot between keeping your bike, body and head in check.  One of the things I always try to keep at the top of my list is: if things go all to hell; be prepared to walk away from the whole thing like it never happened.  With that thought in mind, I start planning when I drop that check in the mail for the pre-entry.  I agree that the "How things work" at these events is a bit fuzzy, but to me that's ISDTing it. The spirit of the event? Jezzzz, I'm no ISDT historian but I look back at all the ISDTs and think of all the "political games and cheating stuff" that was going on back in the day and kind of factor that into the ISDTRR event as another angle of the event.  Now, that is sometimes easier said than done, especially if your battling for points at the last event of the season.  Believe me during the final motocross/grass (?) track event, the ONLY thing that was in my head was trying to run down & get past that damn Hodaka. Same with the terrain.  Man that first 10 miles was tuff.  But I looked at it like: Wow! What a challenge of man and machine, cause it's all about saving both to make it to the end of the event, right? To me that's the spirit of the ISDTRR. Of course, that's coming from a guy who didn't lock up his motor or lose his clutch out there.  I came into the event half-assed prepared, by my standards (which are not very high) and kept my fingers crossed the whole weekend.  I vote for Dick Mann for the quote of the weekend, where at the banquet he proclaimed:  "It reminds you of how really crappy these motorcycles were".  

Pete Petrick

'01 KTM EXC 520, '74 YZ 250, '86 Honda XR 250, '71 Hodaka 100, '74 SUZUKI TM 400, '73 Penton Jackpiner

[brokenb23]

AHRMA elections coming up. Let's make a change in officers. Lot of talk going around about change for the better. Remember you have to vote. Very low percentage voting last go around.
                  VOTE FOR A CHANGE
Bob Brizzee
Waiting for Paragould to annex San Diego

[tlanders]

Larry,

David Lamberth sets up the Cross Country event calender by contacting the clubs and setting the dates. The races are run according to AHRMA rules, class definitions, etc. but the laying out of the course and providing the personnel to run the event are the domain of the club running the event. David makes sure that there is someone at the event for signup and tech inspection (lots of time this would be Corky and Patti Root, or James Smith) so that the correct paperwork will get back to AHRMA. AHRMA also requires the club to have proper insurance, ambulance converage, etc. but the club runs the event and usually provides the "referree" for the event to settle conflicts. In the case of the ISDTRR, all the "extra" rules, procedures, etc. required for this unique event have to be approved by the ISDTRR Committee. At the banquet they told us the committee was made up of Dick Mann, John Penton, John Swarzky (sp?), Ron Ribolzi, Jeff DeBell and I think a couple others. These guys approved the "Supplemental Rules" for the weekend that every rider received in the packette when they signed in and they were published on the ISDTRR Missouri Mudders website for the last few months.

Ron Ribolzi was the referree for the event. Your problem wasn't the rules, or AHRMA, it was that Ron wouldn't decide in your favor concerning your situation. I am sure that he was thinking that if I let this guy get away with no penalty, then what do I do about Jeff Smith who also got a 300 point penalty for not impounding at all, or a couple of the ISDT Veterans who didn't impound and kept their bikes in the tent out of the rain all night (I guess they thought their new bikes couldn't take the rain like our 35 year old bikes - the wimps!!!!). This really hurt a couple of the vets in their final standings. For your information, at the ISDT Qualifier Warmups we assess a 120 points penalty for not impounding on time. It is apparent that the ISDTRR comittee REALLY wanted everyone signed in, teched, and impounded by 6:00PM Friday or they wouldn't have assessed such a high penalty.

If you want to recommend changes to the ISDTRR rules, send them to any of the committee members not to Dave Lamberth. I have some additions I would like to see next year and that is what I will be doing. I hope this helps Larry.

Teddy

[Dwight Rudder]

First of all the ISDTR is a unique event and wouldn't even be a AHRMA event but for Dick Mann. Many of the vets don't want it to be a AHRMA points payer.  As for the penalty the rules for the 2 day were clear. Impound on Friday.  It isn't fair for the folks that abide by the rule and impound , leaving their bikes in the elements only to have somebody impound a prewarmed up bike on Saturday morning.  Many feel they shouldn't even allow Late impound.  So it was your choice to impound late.  The Grass track wasn't set up because Dick Mann wanted to do it himself. Ron Robolzi didn't want to put Buggsy in the cold rain on Friday and chance him getting ill.  I understand that. Remember the ISDTR is not just another AHRMA event.  It is a special happening to celebrate the ISDT and it's riders. The club had to use the first 8 miles to get to the good trail.  I didn't like it but it had to be used. They had to use it on the return also but there was only 3 miles of bad trail on the return.  The next day the trail was perfect.  Not a lot the club could do about the weather.  The did a pretty good job of keeping the event ridable.  It was sad that 20 riders quit where they did.  They had been through the bad part and the trail only got better ahead.  Many of those who quit rode day 2 anyway.  AHRMA is lucky that they are allowed to use the ISDTR as a points payer for the CC series as there are many who would just as well rather it not be.  
IMHO,
Dwight

PS:  Why in the hell would someone choose a Bultaco Pursang ( or any other low pipe MX bike ) for any AHRMA CC event.  I saw several trying to keep the pipe on as the rocks kept trying to knock them off or cave them in.


Dwight Rudder
7 time ISDT / E medalist
8 time National Enduro Class Champion.

[Larry Perkins]

No my problem IS with AHRMA as that is the organization that sanctioned this event.  Just because the rule was published doesn't make it right.  I said that the moment I saw it and my situation was different than just not impounding.  I DID NOT CHOOSE to impound late I just had bad luck that delayed me!  I wanted to explain my delay but no one would let me impound Friday night.  My beef is not that it did not go my way but that it was not fair.  

Bad trail can always be routed around it just has to be planned in advance but it is obvious that many think there is no flaw so that nothing needs fixing.  Keep that thinking up and you will eventually play by yourself.

Since apparently everyone loves the event more than the OBVIOUS flaws and Ted your event in the spring wants to do the same I will just bitch to AHRMA and then NOT race any ISDT events while everyone thinks that all is hunky-dory.  It is not a fair rule and only penalizes those that have to work.  

I personally feel that you got pleasure from my penalty, Ted.  I felt that Friday evening and have seen the things that slide for those that are tight with AHRMA.  I know this will all be denied too as i am just crazy.  Whatever!  Politics-that is why the ISDT spring event is called Teddy's ISDT Qualifier and why this weekend it was Ron's show.  You guys go ahead and do the event the same way and I am sure I won't be missed there is so much more cannon fodder out there.  If you run enough of them off you might win one by default.

I continue to wonder why I do this? I am just not real bright sometimes.

Larry P

[lksseven]

Penalties for guys keeping their bikes in the tent all night are completely justified.  

Penalizing a guy for being 14 minutes late to impound because of a traffic stop is not justified, IMO.  Gotta have the ability to make the "exception that makes the rule.'   Being stopped by the DOT is not an 'unfair advantage'.  Cutting a guy some slack for truly unintentional tardiness is no burden to those that were there on time (14 minutes late?  He started out with plenty of time to spare, but got stuck due to actions outside of himself.  That's not "poor planning".  That's the type of universally soul-killing "precision dictate", reviled by all, that the credit card companies employ when you mail your check 6 days before the due date, and because some postal worker makes a mistake the check gets there the day due instead of two days early, but is processed in the computer an hour after the "cutoff time" of 1pm, so they assess you a $35 late fee and $69 finance charge.  Their response is identical ("send your check in earlier - i.e. plan better), and it makes you walk outside and howl at the moon.  How much better to have a rider attend and participate, rather than have him skip it because he's thinking "I can't take off work early, and I'm cutting it close on time, so .... ah, the heck with it, I just won't attend."

FYI, the winner of one of the classes did not start on time Sunday morning (he took almost 2 minutes to get his bike going) and received no penalty.  Also, a couple of very popular riders entered the impound waaaay before their authorized entry, and were seen to have done it by impound officials and had no penalties administered.
     I think the late starting bike should have gotten the penalty, and also the two early impound penetrators - those were mechanical underperformance and willful breaches.

My point is that "intent" MUST play some part in the determination of "what to do about this/that situation".  INTENT plays a part in "affairs adjudication" of every civilized society on earth, and should be applied in all civilized pursuits.  

Having said that, I love this event, and will continue to support it.


Larry Seale
I choose to ride

[Lew Mayer]

Larry,you better send your letter quick. Dave Lamberth is resigning as of the end of November.

Lew Mayer

[tlanders]

Larry,

I am sorry you think that I got pleasure from your situation, I didn't, I want to see MORE Pentons riding not less. In fact, I was hoping that Ron would not penalize you as I totally agree with Larry Seale and feel you should have been cut some slack because of the situation that caused you to be late. That is why I told you that you might not get any penalty because I wasn't sure if anyone had been set up to police the penalties.

I guess whoever they did get to record them missed a few according to Larry Seale. Larry S. should have reported them to Ron and the score keeper and then they would have been applied I am sure. That is why there is a 30 minute protest period after the results are posted. People get a chance to see if there were any errors in the scoring. I believe there were only about 5 guys that found errors and told Brian about them. He was quick to get them straightened out. It is not fair to let people get away with breaking the rules. They didn't let me get away with breaking the red ribbon rule at the MX track and gave me a penalty for hitting it!!! I know they were trying to be fair.

I think people were confused about my role at the event. Ron called me a few months ago and asked if I would do tech for the event. I said OK. However, when I got there, the score keeper, Brian called me and said he wasn't going to be able to make it by noon and asked if I would be willing to handle getting all the changes in the registrations in the computer for him. Stan Beni and Steve Paulk had already spent 5 hours entering all the pre-entries in the computer on Wednesday, but someone needed to be there to add in the post entries, make any changes in classes and answer AHRMA related questions as the riders signed in. I had asked Phil Ketchum to help me in tech and then I asked him if he would be in charge of tech so I could help at sign in. We then asked Harold Hazel, Jeff Spivey and Robert Briggs to help Phil in tech. At the end of all this, it looked like I was in charge since I was running around trying to help where it was needed. But I wasn't in charge. I had nothing to do with the creation of the rules, the policing of the rules, or the running of the event. I was just willing to help where they needed me.


For the ISDT Qualifier Warmups, you only need to impound 1 hour before key time which is at 9:00AM. This is to accomodate the riders who can't get there until late Friday night. You only need to impound by 8:00AM and the penalty is only 120 seconds. I do not believe anyone ever has been given this penalty in the three years we have run the event. If there are any areas of the rules for the qualifier that you, or any rider, think needs improving, I would love to have you send them to me.

Again, I was and am truly sorry that Ron made the decision as he did, but he was the referree and he had his reasons. I am glad you enjoyed the MX on the Mint 400. I gave Tim your phone number as he is interested in buying it.

Teddy

[tlanders]

You know, the actual answer to your question "Who realy controls AHRMA racing" is the AHRMA board of trustees, 12 guys elected by the members.

Teddy

[tlanders]

I will be leaving for Atlanta on business tomorrow morning at 6:30 so I will not be able to enter in to this discussion any more this week.

Teddy

[Paul Danik]

In reading this thread I realized that maybe I am the class winner who is mentioned as not starting on time on Sunday morning, I fouled a plug as I left the line and I had to change it. If I am the one you are refering to please feel free to confirm it. I have posted the rule below and the penalty. If this changes the outcome of the class then so be it, and may I be the first to offer my congrats to the new class winner.
Paul


D.      One minute to start bike and travel under power 65' (10 point penalty)

[Big Mac]

I agree a penalty for 14 minutes late is a bit inflexible, but us old guys playing as ISDT riders for a day is all about deadlines, execution and finishing, no?

I rode the '02 event put on in MO by the Mudders, and the '04 event at the Zink Ranch. Having to work on Friday?? For us geographically unfortunate, our timekeeping to make the impound deadline started Wednesday morning, and included 2500+ highway miles in an old tow rig...part of the challenge of going for a quasi-imitation-gold medal.

In '04, after calculating every milepost along the way for 2+ days, our truck burned a bearing at 11am Friday, about 150 miles from the Zink Ranch destination. We doused the smoking and squealing steel with water, and limped on to the nearest burg, cell-phoning ahead to source a mechanic and parts. With a lot of scrambling and luck, we got the repair done in record time while we did last-minute hurried prep on the bikes back in the trailer, then drove like crazy to get back on our minute to make it to impound with 20 minutes to spare before deadline.

We then found out, to our disappointment, that the club there was NOT enforcing ANY penalty for late impound and guys were rolling in late, casually prepping for the next day's challenge. Oh well, at least WE knew we won our medals fair and square. I personally think the clubs ought to check headlights and taillights before and after the 2 days too, just to preserve a dozen or so points for those riders going the extra step to really play by old-school ISDT rules...


Jon McLean
Lake Grove, OR

[lksseven]

Paul,

It was definitely NOT you to whom I was referring.

By the way, it was a pleasure to visit with you, and meet your son.  Thanks for the tips on the Jackpiner suspension!!!!!  I've made notes today and have starting looking around.

It was a pleasure to watch you ride.

Larry Seale
I choose to ride

[chicagojerry]

right now its all up in the air about who is in control at ahrma. the executive director has not been able to be reached for days. resignations are happening fast and furious, lawsuits are pending and some are saying that they may file for bankruptcy.and they have now shut down the ahrma message/chat board. things are heating up. i certainly hope that things can settle down. despite some shortcomings that are being felt right now,they really are the only game in town for vintage competition. i would hate to see ahmra disappear. and larry, i have learned a long time ago that there can not be a set of rules to deal with every set of circumstances.and if i understand it right,it was unfortunate what happened to you. a little sympathy of the situation would have gone a long way.
chicago jerry