100cc --Who's In?

[Ernie Phillips]

With the very good prospect of having a 100cc MX class in 2008, who would build/race a 100 cc Penton or other Sachs engined bike and what events would you ride?  If your decision is based on allowing a 6-speed, please indicate such so we can let rule makers know.

I would like to build a CMF Berkshire, 5A and/or 6B if 6 speed approved.  For me, using a 6B is easy as I have a fresh 100 engine ready to go.  Events:  Casey, Mid-O & Barber for sure.  Hardrock, Diamond Dons, Devils Ridge maybe.  Rider:  Kid Christopher at 150lbs.

Ernie P.
Chattanooga, TN

[SouthRider]

Ernie,

I am currently rebuilding a Berkshire 100, with the option of a CMF or Frame breather frame. I am leaning towards the CMF frame cause it has to be lighter, with the frame breather swingarm (because of the side stand).

I don't have any "A" motors, so this would leave me out, and I'm not sure if I would go buy one just to race motocross (which I've never cared for).

Seems awful silly to allow reed valves, but no 6 speed motors. Were these rules writtten by some Hodaka fanatics?

Sure would like to see a legitimate 100 class for cross country......


Clark Gristina

[Dwight Rudder]

Honestly the Hodaka guys were not questioned about the requirements for the class.  They were however intrumental in stirring enough commentary to make this class happen.  I know of no Hodaka rider that would mind a piston port 6 speed being in the class.  In fact my Hodaka is a 1972 Super Rat with piston port engine.  Same with my Dirt Squirt.  I also have several G5 / KE100 Kawasaki, a 1972 SL100 Honda, and a 1970 Penton Steel Tank Berkshire.   All are 5 speeds and no reed valves.
Unfortunuatly my Hercules K100GS is a 6 speed.
I will not be riding the ISDTR next year due to other commitments but I hope to ride one or two AHRMA event in the 100cc class.
Dwight

[bildough]

ive got my berkie all ready to go. and i raced it last year in a 100cc class. Now it isnt eligible because it has a 5 speed engine. That is just plain crazy. They say all bikes up to 75 but with 5 speeds. the only bike that affects are sachs based engines. i just a month ago did a compilation of the entrants in the program for the 100cc class at the 1973 hopetown GP. 50% of the bikes were sachs based engines about 30% hodaka based and there were a surprising number of hondas. The  1972 Kawasaki centurion was the fastest 100 engine until 1990 and it is eligible because its a 5 speed. Crazy. thats all i can say crazy. Who pissed off Dick Mann and jeff Smith.

Bill Cappel

my berkie all ready to run http://www.pelicanguanomotorsports.com/

[tooclose racing]

Bill Cappel:

I just gotta tell you what a cool website/museum/operation your crew has going at Pelican Guano.  I have looked at these photos before, but the "album" I viewed previously didn't have the editorial. Great, great stuff - thanks.

Good luck with your 100cc racing effort in 2008. Which really means "have a blast!"

[john durrill]

Ernie, Clark , Bill
 Looking at what we have to work with I think you can block out 6th gear with out splitting the cases, changing any stock components and if 6th gear is approved later remove the lock in about 5 mins. We could bounce this off Doug , Dane , Kip and Ron C. and see what they think of the idea. They have a lot more engines rebuilds and experience with the Sachs engine than i do. But It looks to me like it would work  with a little effort.
 Would you folks like that as an option? Any support that can be given to a 100cc class i think with help everyone that likes vintage events.
 John D.

[t20sl]

Another idea would be to block out 1st gear.  The ratios between 2-3-4-5-6 are closer.  Easier to keep on power band.  Just a thought.  Ted

[john durrill]

Ted,
 Thats a good idea ,another way to do the  same job.  I  think it will require a lot more work. Could you live with a box with neutral all the way down for MX? If you can its a better solution.
 If you have an old 6 speed selector boss ,welding up the 1st gear notch might be all it would take. Its a lot more work to install  or change back though . The boss would not be easy to put back stock. It would probably be a non-reversible change in that part.
 An adjustable stop limiting the selector lever would be another way to do that with out changing things so much that the mod is per.
 1/2 of 1st is the kick start gear so it has to stay in the gear box.
 John D.
 
 

[t20sl]

John:  I was thinking of sliding a spacer over selector rod behind the fork piece to keep it from going all the way out.  Don't know if people would be hitting neutral all the time but if geared correctly 2nd wouldn't be used that much anyway?? Ted

[john durrill]

Ted ,
 Thats another way to lock out 6th. It would have to be small enough to allow the oil to lube the bearing and made of something like heavy brass tubing because it would be spinning on the selector shaft. Only way I can think of to install it is to remove the selector rod and put it on. That would be splitting the cases unless you can change a shift key with out doing that chuckle chuckle. I have heard of it done and know of one man that did it just before the 2007 RR. He was a lot braver than me * grin *.
 I think if you go the lock out 6th route you can do it with a brass or plastic dowel inserted in the main shaft from the counter shaft sprocket side. Add a steel slug ( to keep wear to a min on the primary case) inside the primary case where the speedo drive gears would normally go. Put the tranny in 5th with the lever all the way to the stop on the up shift. Trim the brass or plastic dowel to the right length . Put the steel slug inside the the hole the speedo drive gears ride in normally and bolt the case on. You would have to play with the dowel length or shim the steel slug out so they just stop the selector shaft in 5th up shifting with a little over shift.
 We did this years back with silicon seal trying to keep water from entering the tranny. Used too much not thinking and ended up with no 6th gear chuckle chuckle. Took us a while to figure out what we had done. If this will work it can be removed at any time quickly and no harm done to any parts.
 John D.

[firstturn]

John,
  You are right on with you blocking out 6th gear.  While I think a wait and see stand on how the 6 speed ruling goes would be in order, it is fun to look at what one could do to modify the 6 speed to be legal under the current rule.  My suggestion is to use a plastic or teflon round piece of stock glued (epoxy) or a screw to a plastic end cap over the countershaft end.  I normally had a small ignition cover cut back to where the countershaft was totally exposed with a plastic cap on the shaft.  This also served the purpose of shedding the mud away from the point of where the chain makes the sharpest curve and normally helped clean the countershaft sprocket area.

  I for one would say I normally always used 6th gear in racing a 100.  I think a lot to the secret to racing and winning on a 100 is the proper sprockets(gearing).  Just to prove John's theroy you might look at a old post where one POG Member had a 3 speed 100.

  Happy New Year.

http://www.pentonusa.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3721&SearchTerms=mud

Ron Carbaugh

[Larry Perkins]

AHRMA has tried to sell Vintage as trying to represent the past yet they actually try to rewrite history.  

In 1974 the KTM motored Penton motorcycles had more travel than any other production motorcycle yet in Sportsman class the travel the KTM motored Penton had can not be used because it is considered Post Vintage.  It had that advantage then but now can not have its true Historical significance.  

According to AHRMA history in 1974 the Sachs powered 6 speed 125 was outdated and gets to race with 1971 and older bikes where it did not in real history even exist yet.  The same 1974 six speed Sachs as a 100 is, acording to AHRMA, then at advantage over 5 speed 1974 100s.  Not logical, not historical, and not fair from one direction or the other.  

If you do not see there is some other agenda going on here you do not have your eyes open.  Strangely enough on another note there seems to be alot of defending of the Hodaka bunch than is necessary and those bikes stand to gain the most from this rule. "Be patient we are trying to work it out."  Hmmm[?]  Who is in charge and how hard is it to just let history be the way it was?  Why in all things do the few influence how it is going to be for the many?  Patience hell, change it or piss on AHRMA.

Later I will tell you how I really feel.[}:)]

[Dwight Rudder]

Larry,  I am one of the "HODAKA GUYS" .  As well as a Sachs,DKW,Penton fan. I believe that the piston port 6 speed 100 should be allowed. I have a nice 1972 Hercules K100GS that I can't race in the 100cc MX class. All the Hodaka guys I know feel the same. In fact it is Paul Stannard and other Hodaka guys who are going to bat for the Penton guys.
Don't think this was a rule just for Hodaka. I believe that the Penton / DKW / Hercules / Sachs bikes were about the only 6 speed 100s out there before 1975. That probably has a bearing on the issue but I don't think it was a great advantage.  Why do you think the rule was written just for Hodaka guys ?  The Hodaka guys are fussing because they can't use 250 forks anymore and are stuck with the 30mm forks and can't use aluminum aftermarket swingarms anymore either.  The other brands out there that had 100s were Kawasaki , Suzuki , Yamaha, Honda, Bridgestone, Harley Davidson, Zündapp and Beta all had 5 speed transmissions.  That probably had a lot to do with the decision.  Hodaka guys were yelling the loudest about forming a 100cc class and are yelling the loudest about allowing 6 speed Piston port Sachs engines in also .
Dwight Rudder
Penton Owners Group
Hodaka Owners Group
Vinduro

[Larry Perkins]

Dwight,

You are not what I would define as a Hodaka Guy.  You are an enthusiast as your love is for the sport and you are not focused on one certain brand.  

In my opinion the current rule helps the Modified Super Rat more than any other bike and hurts the Six Speed Sachs motored bikes, which are mostly Pentons, the most.  It was the Hodaka Guys including Paul's influence that caused the sudden turn around when a poll of the vast majority of the membership had shown a want for the 100cc Class for sometime.  It is a conclusion that the Board should have come to on their own and no one group or person should have enough influence to change their minds for the good or the bad.  It is the Good Ol Buddy Inside Guy that is wrong.  The continual defense of the Hodaka bunch may only be coincidence but usually in life when there is a lot of "not us" squawking there is a chicken.  Perhaps not.

My bigger point is for some reason there is an agenda at AHRMA and there is a pattern of trying to write history the way they think fair is. All the while they call it the American HISTORICAL blah blah blah.  It is just time to call a duck a duck.  

Some will say AHRMAs rules in suspension, attempt to ban the D motor, and 6 speed 100 were not meant to hurt Pentons or Penton riders.  I would remind them of one of Lord Byron's sayings:"Though the boys throw stones at the frogs in sport, the frogs do not die in sport, but in earnest."

I predict that in the future if Vintage survives AHRMA will not.  Something bigger and better will rule.  That is if AHRMA does not kill any possible Vintage future by also not listening to the majority that also would like to see youth participating.  Otherwise our days are numbered anyway.

The Big Question in all this debate boils down to a question that gets asked again and again-Who runs AHRMA? The few or the majority? To this point it is not the majority.

Larry P

[brian kirby]

Dwight,

There is nothing in the rule that says the Hodaka guys cant use 250 forks. They cant use 125 forks, but they can use 250 forks, as the rule is currently written.

Brian

'72 Six Day (on loan from Ernie P.)