Can you help Tom Penton?

[Jeff D]

Tom Carmichael is correct.  Just got word from Donald that this is a 76 175, however it is an ex-Tom bike that Marcia got from him and not a production piece....but it is not the 125/175 that Tom is seeking.
Sorry to burst the bubble of excitement.  Hopefully one of the originals will turn up yet.

Jeff DeBell

[john durrill]

Brian. Folks would look at 125/175 and not know unless they looked very close.
 The 175 pipe would have a similar end piece as the 73 and up 125's. The D type cylinder used the 28 mm carb and it looks almost identical to a 30 mm Bing.
 Rick G. has a Sachs 175/6 in a 74 Six-Day frame he found and after several calls  was told it must have been one of the few special types that were built and evaluated. That one looks just like a D engine Sachs 125 Six-Day except for the exhaust header size.
 The real advantages Tom went into , the frame is different on the 100/125's and a little lighter. There is a 20 + lb difference in engine weight though and thats a biggie. The crank on the 125 B engine is 2 1/2 lb lighter than a KTM 175 crank. Now that's one place you would really notice a difference when you got it in the woods.
 John D.

[TGTech]

Folks,

Having been involved with the Penton R&D/Imports machine shop since 1972, I have a lot of knowledge of engine projects. And I do not remember ever working or seeing a Sachs 175 being built after the KTM 175 came out in '72.

Dane

[brian kirby]

Maybe he was thinking about the 152cc iron cylinder mod? But he did say that the 125 frame was different than the bigger frame so that sounds like the CMF era not a Steel Tanker. The mystery deepens!

Brian

'73 Berkshire Team  d-Con
//www.d-conproducts.com America's #1 Rodent Control Brand

[john durrill]

Yes it does Brian chuckle chuckle!
Dane did you see one that may have been built before the 72 run of KTM's 175 engine bikes?
That would fit with what Jimmy told me. Late 71 time frame before the CMF was on dealers floors. I would think you folks had the CMF bikes and were riding them before we had them on the floor.  His memory is not much better than mine though:)
 John D.

[OhioTed]

Dane,

Per Tom Penton's recollection, several of these bikes were put together "right after he got out of the Air Force".  Tom seemed to think it was "around '74 or '75".  I don't have a reference handy for what years Tom served in the AF, but that is what he recalled right off the top of his head.  Just to review what Tom said, "The bikes were CMF Six-Days, with forward-mounted shocks, the Sachs bottom end, and KTM 175 piston, jug, and head".    

John,

Can you tell us who "Rick G." is?  Is his bike possibly one of the originals?  Is it complete, running, etc?

[brian kirby]

The Admiral, Rick Grant.

Brian

'73 Berkshire Team  d-Con
//www.d-conproducts.com America's #1 Rodent Control Brand

[john durrill]

Ted ,
  It is complete , we didn't try and start it, I am not sure where he found it but it has from all indications a a true Sachs 175/6 engine with a modified 6 day 125 head. The pipe looked like a 72-75 type 175 Jackpiner pipe. the head pipe diameter was the give away. It was in the later lay down type frame I " think " ( its been a year }. Rick did some calling and like I said, was told it must have been one that was put together for evaluation. It looked like it rolled off the assembly line. Whoever did it did a first class job.
 From listening to Tom in the vid. I don't think it was the bike he was talking about. The Sachs 175 was an A type crank with a 60 mm stroke and bore.

[TGTech]

Again, I don't remember doing any 175's after the KTM 175 was in existence. I do remember that there were some Sach's 175's before the KTM engine came out because JP wanted a 175 before KTM got into the manufacturing. Now, before the summer of 72, I wasn't working full time for Uncle Ted in the machine shop, because I was still in college. Maybe there was something being done before I got home that summer.

Dane

[john durrill]

Thanks Dane,
 That fits what Jimmy told me. It would make sense to play with one. Good way to evaluate cylinder porting and pipes .
  And you folks could probably get cylinders before you could get a complete bike.
 John D.

[rob w]

Ted, You could follow up on a lead I heard Tom say in the video. He mentioned something about Jim Hollander receiving one of the bikes.
What does'nt match up though is, Tom said it might have been around '74 or '75 - and Jim Hollander was'nt riding a Penton in '74 or '75. Jim Hollander's POG forum user name is Hotgrips.
Just a thought.....
BobW

[tmc3c]

The 1972 175 KTM motor was ridden in the 1971 ISDT "Isle of Man" and Dick Burleson and Lars Larrson rode these bikes.Tom was in the Air Force in 71 and rode the ISDT.Then couldn't ride the 72 ISDT because it was in Czech.From all of the pic's with him on a 175 bike we don't see him on a 175 bike till after the 1973 ISDT.The Source which was at most of these events said none of these bikes were Sach's bottomed end bikes.Time lines must be crossing and we should get Jack in on this.Dane is spot on in this matter.The sorce says this is a 152 Sach's that we are talking of.Sach's never made a 175 for a Penton but Hercules did which was Sach's.



Thomas Carmichael


1970 125 Six Day
1976 250 Hare Scrambler

[marsattacks]

If someone has the book from the Mass ISDT it might be worth comparing the photos to the rider numbers and cc class entries. I will do so when I get it back (my copy is on loan). I think there could be a few unusual set-ups shown. Hope it isn't a bum steer.

[OhioTed]

I am not that familiar with all the Penton models.  I do know of a Steel-Tanker 175 Jackpiner, an example of which is owned by Paul Danik.  It has a blue tank.  Possibly that is the one which displaces 152cc.  But, it is all-Sachs.  Tom Penton is specifically referencing a mixing of Sachs bottom end and KTM top end.  Regarding the 175 KTM jug and head used in the hand-assembled bikes he created, Tom describes them as black, in color.  Is it not true that only  the earliest 175 and 250 KTM motors were painted black?  However, Tom also references the "first longer-travel rear suspension", which would have been 74/75.

Note that in the video, Tom also references a second test-bike, or set of bikes, which consisted of a full, 175 KTM motor, in a 125 frame.

Let's see what Jim Hollander may have to say, if he can be reached.

[OhioTed]

I tried sending an e-mail to Jim Hollander, using the e-mail address listed in his Member profile, but it is not valid.  Does anyone know how to reach Jim?