Deadline AHRMA-AMA

[Larry Perkins]

There are many kids that race MOVMX that are not what you say Dwight.  I think you want it to not work and it is that hard headedness that has made AHRMA try to find a way to keep kids from racing Vintage instead of trying to figure a way for it to happen.  I think you wish the AMA to fail in this venture and AHRMA to succeed.  I predict it will go just the opposite.  The AMA will take Vintage racing into the future and AHRMA will eventually fold.  In the meantime we can all just agree to disagree.  

By the way Dennis I know as many squid adult riders that I worry of doing a boner move on the track as I know kids that I would gladly try to catch.  Quite a few.  You can believe I am dumb for not liking AHRMA but that alone is a bit childish.  I don't think you are dumb for believing in them.  AHRMA has worked over time at irking me.  I guess I will leave it with this-between bicycles and motorcycles I have won a World Championship and 7 National Championships.  I have raced for over 40 years all over the United States and twice in Europe and AHRMA has caused me more grief than anywhere else.  More than the GNC, AMA, ABA, NBL, WBL, and UCI combined.

Larry P

[sixdazed]

Ok,So now that's it's over maybe ahrma can get back to their supposed original purpose-"anybody with an old bike in the back of their truck and 20 bucks in their pocket can race".I don't know who screwed who in this deal but let's just all hope it hasn't hurt vintage racing as a whole too badly.
                                    Ric

ric emmal

[tofriedel]

I was a little late to the AHRMA, AMA & Rob I confusion, argument, lawsuit thing, but have been interested since it spilled over to this site.  I personally cannot take any side as it appears, from what has been said, that all parties involved screwed up somewhere along the way.  It is apparent that none of the parties involved acted with cool minds and were looking to the future.

Everyone that has committed has made very relevant points regarding their position, but the real facts are still buried and no one, other than the parties involved, knows those facts.  Someday we will all know, but not today.

However, I like the way that Larry has stirred the pot.  At least for me, his position is not misunderstood and has caused others to relook some of their positions.  That is a healthy environment , out in the open for all concerned.

I am reminded of the moniker that was hung on Harry Truman, "Give Em Hell Harry".  I think Larry has earned that title today.  "Give Em Hell Larry".

Tony Friedel

[Merlin]

quote:Originally posted by Merlin

Originally posted by Dwight Rudder

PROVE that he was the "FOUNDER".  He was just one early member and not FOUNDER.  He was kicked out for being caught numerous times outright cheating. Not exactly something to be proud of. Calling him "FOUNDER" is like calling Al Gore the "FOUNDER" of the internet.
Dwight

 READ THESE:http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=27606
http://www.nonprofitissues.com/public/features/leadfree/2006aug1-IS.html http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/road-racing/2009/04/16/ama-vs-ahrma http://www.bikernewswire.com/story_684.html http://www.ahrma.org/rulebook/sec16.htm https://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=31485  https://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=27606

 Your turn,prove Ianucci is not the founder. Oh yes Dwight, would you care to enlighten us with the details of these numerous incidents of cheating? I know some others that raced against Ianucci's Team Obsolete were, "questionable".
Quote: Thomas Jefferson, We are all born ignorant, some work to remain that way.
 Quote:Peter Villacaro, "it is impossible to teach those that wish not to be taught".

Quote: Thomas Jefferson, We are all born ignorant, some work to remain that way.
 Quote:Peter Villacaro, "it is impossible to teach those that wish not to be taught".

[Larry Perkins]

Very good homework.  Nice when facts are there instead of wishes.  Good job Merlin!

Larry P

[Jeff D]

So this RI/Team Obsolete-AHRMA thing has been going on for almost a decade, and at the expense of the organization?  Makes me sad to think that both sides' egos and/or stubborness got in the way of an equitable solution.  Regardless of how wrong or right AHRMA may have been when originally excluding Team O from competition, the end result sure smells like a lawyer's personal vendetta.  Why would RI want to drive something he helped start to ruin?  Why couldn't AHRMA work to find some common middle ground?  Very selfish and un-Christian actions by all parties involved.  Just an opinion from someone who knows nothing about the mess and has no dog in either hunt.


Jeff DeBell

[gooddirt]

I think you called it ![^]

[Dwight Rudder]

I find nothing here that proves Rob I. was "THE" AHRMA "FOUNDER" .  Just heresay and bad links here.
How about the facts that Larry mentions ?
Dwight

quote:Originally posted by Merlin

quote:Originally posted by Merlin

Originally posted by Dwight Rudder

PROVE that he was the "FOUNDER".  He was just one early member and not FOUNDER.  He was kicked out for being caught numerous times outright cheating. Not exactly something to be proud of. Calling him "FOUNDER" is like calling Al Gore the "FOUNDER" of the internet.
Dwight

 READ THESE:http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=27606
http://www.nonprofitissues.com/public/features/leadfree/2006aug1-IS.html http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/road-racing/2009/04/16/ama-vs-ahrma http://www.bikernewswire.com/story_684.html http://www.ahrma.org/rulebook/sec16.htm https://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=31485  https://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=27606

 Your turn,prove Ianucci is not the founder. Oh yes Dwight, would you care to enlighten us with the details of these numerous incidents of cheating? I know some others that raced against Ianucci's Team Obsolete were, "questionable".
Quote: Thomas Jefferson, We are all born ignorant, some work to remain that way.
 Quote:Peter Villacaro, "it is impossible to teach those that wish not to be taught".

Quote: Thomas Jefferson, We are all born ignorant, some work to remain that way.
 Quote:Peter Villacaro, "it is impossible to teach those that wish not to be taught".

[Dwight Rudder]

Your turn,prove Ianucci is not the founder. Oh yes Dwight, would you care to enlighten us with the details of these numerous incidents of cheating? I know some others that raced against Ianucci's Team Obsolete were, "questionable".


Now pray tell how I can prove that ?  Was Ianucci a former President of AHRMA ? I don't know so tell me. Did he ever have a position in AHRMA ? I am not saying he wasn't in AHRMA at some time but to say that he is the actual "FOUNDER" is strong stuff and funny that guys like Dick Mann and Jeff Smith had the pull to have a "FOUNDER" disqualified and banned from AHRMA events.  The stories I read about the cheating and disqualifications were in CYCLE NEWS .   What other reason is given for them kicking Rob I. and his "TEAM" out for good ?  I feel that anyone that is caught cheating more than a few times should be kicked out. Let's remember the spirit of Vintage racing is not just to build the most modern bike or fastest bike but to keep the past alive.
IMO,
Dwight

PS:  Why are you so in favor of Ianucci and so anti AHRMA ?  Do you want AHRMA to fail and why ?

[wfopete]

One thing for sure; there is a lot of passion out there on this subject – from all sides.  AHRMA IMO was started as a grass roots organization. Every origination requires leadership to function and AHRMA's leadership obviously has been passionate about this issue. I think it would be a good idea if everyone stepped backed, took a deep breath and asked themselves: "Why do we exist and how can we best serve our customer?" and put that ahead of any ego driven or other motives.  I don't know if all individuals can do that in this case. My understanding is that AHRMA has very recently done just that...unfortunately to no avail.

Pete Petrick
175 Jackpiner
Slow but Good

[Merlin]

Originally posted by Dwight Rudder

Your turn,prove Ianucci is not the founder. Oh yes Dwight, would you care to enlighten us with the details of these numerous incidents of cheating? I know some others that raced against Ianucci's Team Obsolete were, "questionable".


Now pray tell how I can prove that ?  Was Ianucci a former President of AHRMA ? I don't know so tell me. Did he ever have a position in AHRMA ? I am not saying he wasn't in AHRMA at some time but to say that he is the actual "FOUNDER" is strong stuff and funny that guys like Dick Mann and Jeff Smith had the pull to have a "FOUNDER" disqualified and banned from AHRMA events.  The stories I read about the cheating and disqualifications were in CYCLE NEWS .   What other reason is given for them kicking Rob I. and his "TEAM" out for good ?  I feel that anyone that is caught cheating more than a few times should be kicked out. Let's remember the spirit of Vintage racing is not just to build the most modern bike or fastest bike but to keep the past alive.
IMO,
Dwight

PS:  Why are you so in favor of Ianucci and so anti AHRMA ?  Do you want AHRMA to fail and why ?

I never said I was anti AHRMA or pro Ianucci, I find it interesting how people that otherwise appear to be able to think for themselves automaticly believe what the spin merchants pedal. I also find it interesting that you refer to Ianucci's repeated cheating yet you are unable to produce evidence or sight documentation other than "it was in Cycle News", pretty weak Dwight.
 This link http://www.nonprofitissues.com/public/features/leadfree/2006aug1-IS.html is to a report that is obviuosly from the courts, sounds like a matter of record here. The other links repeatedly refer to Ianucci as the founder and now after all of this time somehow you imply all of these referrals are a mistake?
 The bottom line is AHRMA fought a battle they could not win because they chose not cut their losses, regardless of "what side someone is on", or even if they never picked sides other than hoping someone in AHRMA was doing the right thing. The fact is the whole ordeal swept the AMA in to the frey and as a result have proven that personal ego trumps what is good for the membership to the point where the AMA gave AHRMA the boot. At this point no doubt the sport will see changes, I for one with the current leadership of AHRMA running things for them will not send or spend another nickle with them with things as is, the track record they have established is one driven by poor judgement and personal agenda, regardless of the outcome.

Quote: Thomas Jefferson, We are all born ignorant, some work to remain that way.
 Quote:Peter Villacaro, "it is impossible to teach those that wish not to be taught".

[Dwight Rudder]

I saw nothing that convinces me the a Rob I. was a founder. Just because it is mentioned in a article that was based on a interview with I. doesn't make it so. No more than Al Gore saying that he invented the internet.  Why do you think AHRMA kicked him and his sponsored riders out ?  Do you think it was for no reason or a minor infraction ? Nobody is twisting your arm to ride AHRMA events. Go ride another series and have fun.  Or, you can support the new AMA Vintage series which I am sure will be headed by Rob I.  This constant complaining and whinning is not productive but destructive to the vintage racing cause.  If you think you could AHRMA do better , run for office.  I think there are more in favor of AHRMA than against.  Time will tell.
Lets get back to riding and racing vintage bikes.
Dwight

[Dwight Rudder]

Larry, Back to Kids racing,  When do you think that kids could race at AHRMA MX ?  There are so many classes that it is hard to get them all in during the weekend.  I personally think that they should go to a A & B class rating and do away with the EXPERT , Intermediate, and Novice ratings.  I think more riders are needed in most classes and that would help greatly. And who knows, maybe they could work in a single kids mini class.
Just a thought.
Dwight

[Larry Perkins]

Dwight,

I think we need kids racing vintage for several reasons.  One we will all die one day and it is our best bet of these bikes still being remembered if sons, daughters, grandsons, and granddaughters have some connection to these bikes.  No better way to connect than hands on.  To know what they were really like helps one appreciate that time and how good today's bikes are in comparison.  Another is that it gives a reason for the whole family to go to vintage events.  

Vintage mini will most likely not happen with AHRMA because they so oppose kids and fear that liability.  The A & B rating is a good idea and that is the way the AMA Vintage is doing it with 2 ratings-A as one group & B/C as another.

Larry P

[Dwight Rudder]

quote:Originally posted by Larry Perkins

Dwight,

I think we need kids racing vintage for several reasons.  One we will all die one day and it is our best bet of these bikes still being remembered if sons, daughters, grandsons, and granddaughters have some connection to these bikes.  No better way to connect than hands on.  To know what they were really like helps one appreciate that time and how good today's bikes are in comparison.  Another is that it gives a reason for the whole family to go to vintage events.  

Vintage mini will most likely not happen with AHRMA because they so oppose kids and fear that liability.  The A & B rating is a good idea and that is the way the AMA Vintage is doing it with 2 ratings-A as one group & B/C as another.

Larry P

No B/C class but just a single B class.  Like when we first started racing there was no C class at all.  You started in B.  Make sure that the top B riders become A riders as soon as possible.  Then maybe we could have a 75cc mini class.  ( Yamaha GT80, Sachs K80, Fugi 80 engined bikes, Honda 70 & XR75 were all 72-73cc bikes. )   The AMA doesn't want us to ride anything less than a 86cc bike in adult races although they rode Sachs Boondockers (Sachs 80, 73cc) bikes with good results in the late 60s.  In Europe they rode 50cc full sized bikes for many many years.  So why not us.